How to Beat Massive Competitors with a Unique Content Approach by Andrew Fiebert (Lasso)

Andrew Fiebert, CEO of Lasso, joined for a webinar on how to beat massive competitors with a unique content approach.

Andrew shared his four favorite hacks to beat massive competitors:

1. Zombie Hack: Keep content fresh

2. Juice Hack: Internal links matter more

3. Peregrine Falcon Hack: Make your site lightning fast

4. Magic Revenue Hack: Traffic with high intent to buy needs to generate revenue

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Watch the full webinar

And check out the resources Andrew’s shared below:

1. GT Metrix

2. Think with Google

3. Cloudflare

4. Schema.org

5. Hotjar

About Andrew Fiebert:

Andrew is the co-founder and CEO at Lasso, an affiliate marketing plugin for WordPress. He started out as a data engineer for investment banks in New York, and had such a keen interest in finance created a personal finance site, Listen Money Matters.

Follow Andrew on Twitter: https://twitter.com/andyfieb

Read the transcript

Travis:

So without further ado, please welcome Andrew to the stage. Andrew is the co-founder and CEO of Lasso, an affiliate marketing plugin for WordPress. He started out as a data engineer for investment banks in York and had such a keen interest in finance he created a personal finance site Listen, Money Matters. Andrew, the floor is yours. Please go ahead and share your screen.

Andrew:

Sure. All right, let me go into presentation mode. Do you guys see that?

Travis:

Looks great.

Andrew:

Sweet. So the title is just a small one, How To Beat Massive Competitors with a Unique Content Approach. And hopefully I'm able to cash that check. So first, okay, so you introduced me a little bit, but spent a lot of time in data engineering. I'm obsessed with data. Worked for a lot of cool companies, and at that time I started to build Listen Money Matters, which was my first site. And then as we learned keyword research, we found the opportunity for Gift Lab and created that. And as we built, we wound up creating a bunch of automations and tools to monetize these sites. Eventually my friends asked for it, so we packaged it, and it became GetLasso. And really for the last three years that's what I've been focused on and mostly working with our customers, some of whom are many fold bigger than any of my sites have ever been.

And it's been a really great learning experience. I thought I was good at SEO until I talked to the real experts. And so my hope is to give some of those tips and tricks here. And so the question is how do you beat the giants? When I started building Listen Money Matters, or right before, I read this article from Corbett Barr called Right Epic Shit, and it literally changed my life because he said that if you create amazing things, it's Google's job to rank it at the top and that's it. So create incredible things, Google will rank you and you win. And in the beginning I started doing that and then I looked into SEO and Google updates and I don't know, optimizing the theme of my site, and it was really distracting. But coming out on the other end, I realized that it's actually just great content.

But I'm not going to teach you how to create great content. There are many people who have done that way better than I can. I'm going to assume that you've already created great content, but now you need to win. Now you need to beat the Forbes and the Business Insiders or the NerdWallets of the world. So how are we going to do it? I'm going to show you my Zombie Hack, my Juice Hack, the Peregrine Falcon Hack, Magic Revenue Hack and the tools that I love that help me get there.

So to start, I would love to use my site Listen Money Matters as an example. I think it's a great example because I have literally abandoned it for two and a half years. To give you a little history on the site, it was crushing it all the way up until Google rolled out the EAT update and we took a big hit, a lot of our most monetized posts lost the most traffic but we collected ourselves, continued to build, but then eventually Lasso became the apple of my eye and stole my focus.

And not long after that, you can see what happens when I divert my focus. And so the goal of using the site was to find an article that actually still ranked in Google, which was pretty difficult, because I have ignored the site for a really long time. But I did find one, it's My Best Vanguard's Fund article. The difficulty is 47, so it's pretty hard. And there's a bunch of giants on this. There's Forbes, US News, Clippinger, The Balance, NerdWallet. They're a VC backed company that had a Superbowl ad, The Street, they have Jim Kramer, which is either good or bad, I'm not sure. And so I figured I was going to use this as an example.

And so also I have a little box around the date because Ahrefs does snapshots of the SERPs, unfortunately I don't do it every day. This super duper Zombie Hack took me one day, but the snapshots were a few days apart. And this is what it looks like after the Zombie Hack.

Now I am number four in the SERPs. This is October 18th, before it was the 12th. I actually did it on the 15th. And if you look, all the back link numbers are the same, the domain numbers are the same, it's literally all the same. One day transpired, I moved up four spots in a highly competitive ranking on a site that I do not even look at. So these are the results of that update. I'd made the update on October 15th and so left is search consult, right is ARFs, and immediately it tripled in traffic.

Feel free to look it up. Feel free to steal all my keywords. I literally don't even use the site, but wow, tripled in traffic. This Zombie Hack must be incredible. So what did I do? What was this amazing thing that changed the game? I literally did the least possible that I could do. I just changed the title. This is all I did to move up four spots in the rankings beating NerdWallet. If we go back, there's NerdWallet in the dust. This is a massive multi-billion dollar company. And so I hope you're shook that this Zombie site could come out of nowhere and literally crush giants.

So let's keep going. This is another example. I blurred out a bunch of stuff. The top two sites are Lasso customers, so I didn't want to throw them under the bus, but all the other guys I would like to throw under the bus. But if I gave you the actual URLs, you'd probably be able to figure out what the SERP was. It's the best SERP for a product that is expensive, one sale will make you a lot of money and as a result there is some serious competition. So besides the fact that the top two sites are Lasso sites, I just had to call out that eight back linker number two because if you follow me on Twitter, what I feel about backlinks. But I think the thing that really sticks out here is their domain rating, 55 and 31 low UR ratings, as compared to these huge sites.

We have Food and Wine, Sirius East, The Spruce, which is pretty hardcore, Wirecutter's on there under the New York Times domain. How are these guys beating everyone? Especially with no backlinks. That's literally ridiculous. Their articles are fresh. So the first two guys have updated it recently, and everyone else we're talking about months since they last updated, and that's it. That's all you got to do. Just update your post. If you could beat everyone in the SERPs, it's super easy, or is it even correct? I was curious what would happen if we went back 64 days ago and looked at Food and Wine. I would expect them to be number one, because they just updated their post and when they go back, they are number one.

And so what happened is they updated their post, maybe they changed their title, maybe they fixed the spelling error, got bumped to number one above everyone else and then they ignored it for over two months and people came and slipped in and stole their spot. So I think we can agree freshness is important or at least matters, but something matters even more than freshness.

Internal links. So if you look at the internal links of these top two sites, they have a ton, and I think it is not surprising that the number two site has an insane amount of internal links and it kind of drops off after that. And while the New York Times is an amazing domain and Wirecutter is legendary, they only built one internal link. And I bet you if they had two or five they would be much higher, but they're not. Okay so so far we know that freshness matters a lot, but our internal links are important. That's one example.

If you go back to the first example, the reason why my site that I haven't touched for forever was able to move so much, so quickly, is because no one built internal links to their pages. NerdWallet has five links, Vanguard has none, The Street has a lot, but 23 of those links are internal links behind a 301 redirect. So they changed the slug and they didn't flatten it. I'm not going to postulate anything, but I think that's very interesting.

So again, freshness matters a lot, and internal links are very important. Possibly you should even flatten your redirects. All right, that's two things. What else? By the way, those first two things are really easy to do. You change the title, change a number in the title and add some links. So what else?

We're insanely fast. You will first see something on the page in 379 milliseconds and the total page takes 2.9 seconds to load and take the numbers as numbers, but what I think is more important is this GTmetrix grade of an A, which shows holistically across all the performance attributes how we rate and the structure very similar to Clearscope in that it's a great way to compare like to like to see how you're doing. So let's go to Thinkwithgoogle, they really believe that speed matters. Their own research shows that a second delay can reduce conversions by up to 20%. A page load from one to three seconds will increase the probability of bounce by 32%.

And it's so important that you could actually have over a 100% bounce rate as per Google if your page is slow. So it's pretty important. And over here we have the average speed index of a bunch of different sectors, and as you can see it's pretty slow as compared to this best practice line in the middle, which is about three seconds. And so everyone's doing generally pretty bad. And so if you can get to this best practice line, or God forbid, better than that, you're doing really well.

So if you look at the best Vanguard fund example, here I am, grade A, 2.9 second load, Clippinger took almost 43 seconds to load D. Forbes did pretty good, but the balance, huge, say 25 seconds. NerdWallet is almost 32 seconds long. D. So D, D, E, B, E. These giants are so slow, they're ridiculously slow, and it's not like Google hasn't told us in vague terms for years how important speed is.

And if we look at example two, first just pause and look at how few backlinks there are for that second item, but the two guys at the top, 1.1 second, A, 4.5 second, A. And as you go down the list we have Cs, Ds, 15 seconds, 24 seconds. It's really bad. That's really bad. They should be embarrassed. I'm embarrassed for them. And so how do you get fast, like a Falcon? I don't have time in this presentation to lay it out for you. I did write an article on how to use CloudFlare for free to make your site insanely fast.

Again, you could pay them $0 and achieve 80% of the results. If you have used a computer before, it should take you about 15 minutes. If you've never used a computer before, I'd expect about 30 minutes to implement this. And I would say by far this will be the highest ROI thing you do this year, if you do this, and you should really do this. So okay, freshness matters a lot. Clearly my abandoned site against huge financial sites, I can post above them by changing a number in the title.

Internal links are really important. It costs you nothing to build. Everyone's worried about links from other people's sites. Well if your site's valuable, the links from your site to your own articles is also that valuable. And the giants are slow, they're really bad, the average is really bad. And so I've always seen this as a super easy competitive advantage, just be fast. It will take you 30 minutes if you've never used a computer before, you're done, and now you're fast forever.

And I think what's more important is that content right now, everyone creates good content and if you dig through the SERPs, a lot of them are pretty similar. They're stealing from each other. Great content is table stakes, and so to get to the top results you need something great, but that's not enough. It's the same thing with personal finance and budgeting. Instead of death by a thousand cuts, it's not that one expense that kills you, it's all the coffees or whatever. Winning all these small battles collectively is how you beat the giants because they're not looking at any of these things, these core fundamentals.

And now I would like to jump to the good stuff. The stuff I really care about, revenue. Because why the website if you're not making money? Am I right or am I right? So my hot take is that traffic with intent to buy needs to generate revenue. If I search for the best standing desk and I go to your website and I don't find a standing desk that is worthy for me to buy, your site fails my search intent. I'm hitting back on the browser and I'm going to someone else to find the desk that I'm looking for. And so if you give me or show me the desk that I want to buy, you have filled that intent. You are servicing the need that people went to Google for, and so you will rank.

And so for these highly monetized terms, earning money is a good way to prove that your article is valuable. It starts with the SERPs. You need to attract more clicks. This is your billboard on the internet. You can't convert more people on your site if they don't even arrive, and the size of the billboard matters. If you look at Wirecutter, again a storied, incredible site, they set the tone for affiliate marketers, how to review products, they don't do any of this. And so, one, it's not shocking that they rank below TechRadar, but they're not going to pull my clicks as much as TechRadar. They have pros and cons in there, they have the rating, things that are really easy. It's a schema.org. You just implement it on your site, you could do it yourself, or you could use Lasso. We will literally do it for you.

One of the things, the secret sauce to Gift Lab, our list site and the gift niche, is we use an enormous amount of data to make decisions on how to improve what we've created. I believe that we have great taste and we create initial articles or lists rather that are good, but they're not perfect. And so every single click that lands on the page or every single click on the page, we capture, measure and we adjust the lists accordingly. If people don't click an item, it gets kicked off the list. If everyone clicks and it's at the bottom, we move it up. Something that seems obvious in hindsight, but you have to do it at scale across your site and just make it part of your maintenance process.

So basically... And obviously Lasso does this as well, will help you track the clicks and stuff, but removing internal links or links to products that aren't getting clicked is how you make it better and how you better service intent, and so you just have to do it. Not doing it will not make you money, and it will not get you to rank.

Again go to Wirecutter, they have these boxes at the top that tell you the best pick, the budget pick, the upgrade pick, people just want the answer. I know you spend a lot of time creating your article and you want everyone to read it and your mom read it, but the truth is no one on the internet really is reading your article. If the average read takes five minutes, the time on site is probably going to be two minutes and install HotJar and see for yourself, people scroll to the answer. I'm Googling for best standing desk I don't want to do 10 hours of research, that's why I'm Googling it. Just tell me which is the best one so I can buy it. And so you need boxes that bring people to your answer. It could be a product, could be a course, it's highly customizable. You could add ratings, pros, cons, whatever. Things that just help them make the decision they arrive for.

And shocker, Lasso does this. And finally what we learned with our reviews on Listen Money Matters is that people will come for a financial product or just a product and then in reading, consuming your content, realize it's not for them and they actually are looking for something else, they didn't realize, but your article helped. And so the best way to service that intent, prevent the quote unquote, down vote, if they click the back button and go back to the SERPs is send them to another page in your site that has the answer. So we convert really well on Listen Money Matters on our reviews, but the people who click on the review and alternatives box convert at a multiple higher than the traffic that just comes from organic.

So they're on my site, they've decided to stay on my site so they like what we have. It just makes a ton of sense. And then you capture more, you got the click now you just have to not lose it, now you just have to close the sale. Shocker, Lasso also does this. And so to recap, in the SERPs your real estate matters, so things like the Pro/Con schema, the Review, it's going to amp your click through rate. Your click through rate to a degree drives your ranking. If you have an article that no one clicks on, I don't think anyone believes that Google will keep that as number one. And while it's not the only thing that will pull you to the top, it certainly affects what happens in the SERPs. People use clicks as votes or that's how I view them. That's how we view it on Gift Lab. And that's how we've been able to grow massively and for a really long time the whole top spots because, well, we have a pretty good idea of what we think people want. In aggregate, they're actually going to tell you, that's what I learned as a data engineer. You just use the masses to give you the right answer.

You need to show your visitors what they want. So they're scrolling through, they don't have time, they're waiting for lunch or I don't know, they're putting their kids to bed or they're just on their phone really quick, you have to stop them in their tracks for a product, for a course, for your email call out. It has to scream, stop. And finally the alternatives are leaky intent because you have a review, or a best post, and your answers are not what they were looking for. But if you give other options they can stay with you. And also it's a great way to build a high quality internal link. Reviews don't usually link out to other posts, but reviews can link to other reviews, especially if they're relevant.

And so in terms of the tools that we use, CloudFlare, you could pay virtually nothing and get 80% of the value. In my article I explain how we serve millions on our sites and we pay virtually nothing to do it. I think it is a huge competitive advantage. We use Clearscope. I went back through my invoices, we've been with you guys since 2018, when I was writing with Listen Money Matters and I tried Clearscope. One of the things that really shocked me was I'd have an article and I would mention the market, because I was writing so much about just investing and stuff like that and Clearscope was like, "Hey, you should probably mention the stock market." And then I realized that my content was not clear and as a result was not comprehensive, and so something like that will help just make it more accessible for people who are reading your articles. Ahrefs that's where all the research is in this presentation. Probably don't need to speak much on them. Lasso, we are your monetization engine, affiliate course, whatever, those needs we serve.

If you make money on your site that's not display ads you need us. And GTMetrix that's what I use to analyze all the sites for speed. And I couldn't ima... I'm a developer myself and I couldn't imagine making a site fast with another tool because this shows you everything you need to know. Because again, like most things, like winning the SERPs, it's the small battles, it's the details that matter and it's death by a thousand cuts when it comes to speed.

So, that's what I got. But if you liked any of this or Lasso seems interesting to you, if you DM me on Twitter, I will give, you say you came from the Clearscope webinar, I'll give you 25% off your first year. Just tell me what you loved. Tell me you hated the webinar. If you just DM me and be like, "Andrew, I found you from the Clearscope webinar and it was the worst webinar I've ever attended." I'll still give you 25% off. But if you're not on Twitter or you just hate Elon Musk, you can go to lasso.co. There's a little intercom chat bubble, click it and then just be like, "Andrew, worst webinar ever. Give me free money." I'll hook you up, and we will work with you to make sure that your site is earning money. And that is the long and short of it. Thank you guys and I'd be happy to answer any questions anyone has.

Travis:

Awesome. Okay, I appreciate that. Andrew, we do have a couple questions, a couple around internal links. First one would be how do you quickly see how many internal links your competitors have?

Andrew:

In Ahrefs there is a report, it's called Internal BackLinks. But the funny thing is probably because it's used so infrequently, almost every time you load it'll say, "Data not available, come back in a second." And you'll literally need to aggressively refresh until the data is available. And so it took a bit of time to get all that information, but it's there and Ahrefs will tell you.

Travis:

Awesome. And then how do you manage your internal links? Do you use a tool or you just maintain a spreadsheet of your internal links and anchor text? How do you manage that at GetLasso and your other sites?

Andrew:

As part of the creation process we use a super sophisticated way of Yoast Premium. They have a total of links that you've built on your site. It's really lean. And so as we're working, we look at that, but when we're looking for opportunities and we look at our competitors or at a SERP, then we'll go to Ahrefs and we'll look at the type of backlinks that we've built. Are they even good... I'm sorry, not backlinks, type of internal links, are they even good? The type of internal links they have. The thing is you can control your internal links, and I believe, or at least in my experience, good internal links are more valuable than backlinks for us. Maybe we're just a rare bird.

Travis:

We have a question from Daniela. She said most of the time clicks increase when they update content, however, once in a while clicks go down. Do you have any theories on why?

Andrew:

Clicks in the SERPs go down?

Travis:

Yes.

Andrew:

So, sometimes Google is basically the biggest AB test that's ever been happening. One article ranks for an untold amount of keywords, Ahrefs doesn't even have the full story. And so they're split testing against tons of sites all over the place. And maybe they tried someone else at the top and the good news is if you lost it and got back, they thought you were the best. So they put you back there.

Travis:

Awesome. And then Tyler's got a question, what's the benefit of using Ahrefs compared to say Semrush or Moz?

Andrew:

So I was going to say this in the presentation, my wife was like, "Don't say this." But Ahrefs data is wrong. If you run a website and look at their traffic data, it almost certainly doesn't match your traffic data. And if you hook up Google Search console to Ahrefs to your site, their traffic data will still not be correct, the keywords will not be correct, the rankings will not be correct. And I remember when I was first working on sites and I was talking to a friend and he was bringing that up, my past life as a data engineer, the actual number doesn't matter because directionally it's correct.

And so directionally they're both correct. I actually think Semrush has a lot of really cool tools, their Link Neighborhood tool that'll show you essentially if there's a private blog network, which is better. I think they're both equally good, but I will say that I've been falling in love with Semrush lately.

Travis:

Awesome. And another question is from Bernard. Do you have an opinion about quantity versus quality of internal links? For example, does an internal link from a page that's performing well in a search already matter a lot more?

Andrew:

So you guys had Kevin and Dig on a few weeks ago, his blog is awesome. And when you go to one of his articles and you read it, the internal links literally scream that they need to be opened in another tab. They are so insanely relevant, so insanely useful, that is an internal link. A related reading at the bottom of a post that's like an internal link, that's a level one internal link. Kevin does level 10 internal links. And so not all created equal, and I don't believe that an internal link matters if it's from a ranking article or an unranking article. I think the quality of the link and its placement and the tightness of relevancy between the content matters so much more. I think we get caught up in the numbers of search, we forget that people are the ones that we're creating for.

Travis:

Good point. And then another question from Tyler, how do you validate your keywords? So you know you're not wasting your time writing articles that aren't going to get enough search volume? Is there a way to do it with free tools?

Andrew:

Yeah, so this was originally part of the presentation. I went a different way. All of my sites, and I think you'd be crazy to do it otherwise, are built bottom up. We go to zero keyword difficulty, zero volume, places no one is looking and we build the foundation and then we go into progressively more competitive areas. We avoid head terms, like quote, unquote, affiliate marketing. If you have a Ahrefs with position history, if you go to September of 2019, you'll see Listen Money Matters was number one for passive income, which is a huge volume term, super competitive. And the traffic was literal garbage.

I was only able to convert them to InboxDollars and Survey Junkie. No one signed up for financial products. And what I've learned is traffic that brings you 40 visitors but they're your exact customers or they're the exact people that will buy your product, that's what you need to go after. And ironically, that's also what no one is going after. And so when you go to pick keywords, if you're doing a display ad business, which is boring and easy to beat, maybe you want to go for volume. But if you're trying to build a business with staying power, solve a serious need in the niches, that's where the money is.

Travis:

Nice. And a two part question. What do you think about using zombie techniques to simply update title tags? Like diversify it as a very timely and important keyword that people are looking for in these market conditions? And then do you have a framework to inform how you influence the title tag intent?

Andrew:

So there is somebody that I know, he sold his site, but he literally owned the review space for personal finance, made a literal stupid amount of money doing it, and that was his tactic was to just keep everything insanely fresh. One, two, God forbid, three days old, get two writers, go in small changes, move this here, tweak that, you see the change in my title, which was a dumb change, jumped me four rankings in a competitive SERP. Now if you have authority, your content is excellent, fast, and you keep it fresh, I don't think that you can be beat honestly.

Nerdwallet certainly doesn't have the focus to even be fast or internal link, let alone keep their stuff updated. And so as it goes to titles, I think it's would your mom click it? Ignore everyone else. Look what we do with Gift Lab, 31 gifts for dolphin lovers that will make a splash. Just be fun, whatever, something if you're just different, people will click it, because they assume everything else is the same. Most of it is.

Travis:

Awesome. And then what are your thoughts on repurposing written content into, say, videos?

Andrew:

Definitely. So I have not personally killed it with video, but a good friend of mine, Matt Givanisi, has done incredibly well, and that was one of his core tactics. He first had a blog with articles that ranked, then he already knew all the things he needed to create, then he had someone on his team create essentially slideshow videos of his content and post it up on YouTube.

And the trick is to post it up on YouTube and then no one's there, you're nobody, but you have this article that ranks so you could drive views from your article, which seeds it in YouTube and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. He was very successful with that. Another friend of mine, Thomas Frank, also used that tactic with College InfoGeek and built his channel. I think you have some advantage, whatever it is, you have to leverage it. And so if you have an existing site with traffic and you want to do video, you have to leverage your site and the people that are there.

Travis:

Nice. Yeah. And then another question from Tyler, how do you manage working with multiple clients in the same industry? You can't write the same blog post for multiple businesses or compete for the same keyword, do you just divide keywords across your clients?

Andrew:

I don't have clients. Well, I technically do it with Lasso, but my affiliate partners for these sites are, I guess, clients. One, I think posting up a review is an easy land grab. You're literally monetizing their brand traffic. Clearscope has spent an enormous, untold amount of time building up the name Clearscope to something you recognize. And if I rank for Clearscope review, you probably already want to buy Clearscope and I literally just stole the sale from them. So as an affiliate, that's a pretty good strategy.

Then you move to the best topics, alternatives, so I won't say the alternatives to Clearscope on the webinar, but they should do blah, blah, blah, alternative. And then they're off the answers. And so if you were searching for how do I punch my content up to the next level? Maybe multiple products like Clearscope fit that category, and you could show all of them in the post, that's fine, but I don't think that that will be the bread and butter.

Travis:

Points. And then do you think there's a minimum difference in content that Google needs to see for the respect that your content is refreshed?

Andrew:

No. But I'm a developer and so I spend a lot of time on GitHub. I'm not sure what GitHub is, but it looks very similar to the title screenshot I gave you, and then it has red for things that are removed, green for things that are added. Google is filled with a bunch of engineers and I imagine a lot of the way that they view things, or that Google views things is as DIFs or essentially what changed. I don't think that if you change the whole content that is more valuable than changing six sentences. I think my update was a joke to make a point, just changing the title, but I think you should try and make useful updates. One, because whatever you publish is not the best and if you work on it for a year, it still won't be. So there are valid changes you need to make, but I don't think you need to kill yourself over it.

Travis:

Nice. And then what are your thoughts on AI generated content?

Andrew:

It's hot garbage. Google's already penalizing it. It's one of those things that's like if anyone can do it, anyone will do it, and so it's this race to the bottom. I think what's exciting is when you find something with no competition and you should avoid competition. Competition is tough. And so if everyone's doing it, if everyone wrote an article on how many eyes does a horse have? One, you can't really add to the conversation and it just is a waste. And if you have ever read an AI article? They're pretty good for a computer, they're pretty bad for a book report of a third grader. They're really bad.

I just think at the end of the day, if we were to fast forward five years, people who will actually still read are going to want to read human ideas with stories, things that engage them, computers, as far as I understand, can't tell stories of their past with good anecdotes.

Travis:

Interesting. Yeah. And this might be the last question. What are some black hat things you can share that've worked for you, or friends?

Andrew:

I think updating just the title is perhaps black hat. That's literally me being a dick to prove a point. I've never built links, but what I can tell you is if you start a podcast like I did, those are link magnets. What happens is you have this feed that things subscribe to, people subscribe to, robots subscribe to, you just automatically collect links. And so the fact of the Listen Money Matters podcast living on listenmoneymatters.com generated a ridiculous amount of links.

And what you could do is you could put a can glial URL in the feed and then we would make that an article and if it ranked, then we would actually make it a real article and try and rank for whatever it was starting to rank for. And so point being everyone's back links, backlinks, well, the answer is to again, do a difficult thing, which is create something people want, but I think if you created even a small podcast, you'll still get a lot of these automated links coming in for best podcasts for dishes.